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Multilingual maps demo

Jochen123
Hi!

I have been working on a multilingual OSM map, ie. a map where you, the user
can decide in which language the labels should be. A demo of the system is
now available at http://mlm.jochentopf.com/ . The tiles for this demo are
rendered on tile.openstreetmap.de, the software used is the MapQuest Render
Stack with modifications by me. You can choose any language or language
combination for the labels.

This is only a demo, the site might be slow or not work at all. Please try
it out and tell me what you like and what you don't like.

For more about this project see:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_maps_Wikipedia_project

Jochen
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Re: Multilingual maps demo

Ben Abelshausen
Works great for Brussels with all the French - Dutch labels! It's a nice way to spot incorrect language name tags...

Is there a way to just display 'name:nl' or 'name:fr' without 'name'?

Ben

On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 3:34 PM, Jochen Topf <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi!

I have been working on a multilingual OSM map, ie. a map where you, the user
can decide in which language the labels should be. A demo of the system is
now available at http://mlm.jochentopf.com/ . The tiles for this demo are
rendered on tile.openstreetmap.de, the software used is the MapQuest Render
Stack with modifications by me. You can choose any language or language
combination for the labels.

This is only a demo, the site might be slow or not work at all. Please try
it out and tell me what you like and what you don't like.

For more about this project see:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_maps_Wikipedia_project

Jochen
--
Jochen Topf  [hidden email]  http://www.remote.org/jochen/  +49-721-388298

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Re: Multilingual maps demo

Jochen123
On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 04:18:29PM +0100, Ben Abelshausen wrote:
> Works great for Brussels with all the French - Dutch labels! It's a nice
> way to spot incorrect language name tags...
>
> Is there a way to just display 'name:nl' or 'name:fr' without 'name'?

Currently thats not possible. I'll think about how I can add this.

Jochen
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Re: Multilingual maps demo

Pierre Béland
In reply to this post by Jochen123
Jochen

This is very interesting more particulary in areas of the world were we do not recognize the alphabets.

I tried it in Syria were default names are in arabic. If there is a correspondance for the language I select it is ok. Otherwise, the default name is kept. And  there are many areas around the world were we are analphabets not knowing the characters.

This brings the concept of languages proximity and establishing a priority in selecting language to show when there is no name for your selected language. For instance, if french or italian or spanish is not available, english should be showed before arabic, russian, etc. if it is in the list of names.

 
Pierre


De : Jochen Topf <[hidden email]>
À : [hidden email]
Envoyé le : Vendredi 30 novembre 2012 9h34
Objet : [OSM-talk] Multilingual maps demo

Hi!

I have been working on a multilingual OSM map, ie. a map where you, the user
can decide in which language the labels should be. A demo of the system is
now available at http://mlm.jochentopf.com/ . The tiles for this demo are
rendered on tile.openstreetmap.de, the software used is the MapQuest Render
Stack with modifications by me. You can choose any language or language
combination for the labels.

This is only a demo, the site might be slow or not work at all. Please try
it out and tell me what you like and what you don't like.

For more about this project see:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_maps_Wikipedia_project

Jochen
--
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Re: Multilingual maps demo

Jochen123
On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 03:42:42PM +0000, Pierre Béland wrote:
> This is very interesting more particulary in areas of the world were we do not recognize the alphabets.
>
> I tried it in Syria were default names are in arabic. If there is a correspondance for the language I select it is ok. Otherwise, the default name is kept. And  there are many areas around the world were we are analphabets not knowing the characters.
>
> This brings the concept of languages proximity and establishing a priority in selecting language to show when there is no name for your selected language. For instance, if french or italian or spanish is not available, english should be showed before arabic, russian, etc. if it is in the list of names.

Thats why in this demo you can choose a list of languages. So when you enter
"fr,it,es,en" in the field, those languages are tried in turn before the
standard "name" tag is tried.

This is obviously too complicated for everyday use, so for a real map
application we have to find a different way, for instance using the browser
preferences or having a hardcoded list of languages that are similar to
others or so. Unfortunately using such a list can also be quite confusing
if the user isn't aware of it. Suggestions welcome.

Jochen
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Re: Multilingual maps demo

kmilos
On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 3:49 PM, Jochen Topf <[hidden email]> wrote:

This is obviously too complicated for everyday use, so for a real map
application we have to find a different way, for instance using the browser
preferences or having a hardcoded list of languages that are similar to
others or so. Unfortunately using such a list can also be quite confusing
if the user isn't aware of it. Suggestions welcome.


Going down the browser preferences for sure, and if that fails, you could maybe match the first available language that has the same "Suppress-Script" as the requested one?

http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-registry

M

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Re: Multilingual maps demo

Ilya Zverev
In reply to this post by Jochen123
> I have been working on a multilingual OSM map, ie. a map where you,
> the user
> can decide in which language the labels should be. A demo of the
> system is
> now available at http://mlm.jochentopf.com/ . The tiles for this demo
> are
> rendered on tile.openstreetmap.de, the software used is the MapQuest
> Render
> Stack with modifications by me. You can choose any language or
> language
> combination for the labels.

> This is only a demo, the site might be slow or not work at all.
> Please try
> it out and tell me what you like and what you don't like.

Is it better than the old approach (which is used on some wikipedia
language sections already) by Kolossos?
(toolserver no-labels layer + layers for different languages)
Example: http://toolserver.org/~osm/locale/de.html (there are a lot
more)
If so (otherwise I presume you won't do it), why?


IZ

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Re: Multilingual maps demo

Jochen123
On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 10:38:58PM +0400, Ilya Zverev wrote:
> Is it better than the old approach (which is used on some wikipedia
> language sections already) by Kolossos?
> (toolserver no-labels layer + layers for different languages)
> Example: http://toolserver.org/~osm/locale/de.html (there are a lot
> more)
> If so (otherwise I presume you won't do it), why?

The old approach did not scale. For every language they basically had to
add another complete mapnik configuration. Just starting mapnik with so
many config files is slow already. Also the old solution doesn't support
language combinations, only one language at a time.

The new solution (which was actually developed for Wikipedia) supports any
language or language combination without any special configuration. Labels are
rendered on-demand and only kept for a short-time in a LRU cache in memcached,
so there aren't millions of tiles in a hundred different languages clogging up
the disk.

Jochen
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Re: Multilingual maps demo

Laurence Penney
In reply to this post by Jochen123
Cool stuff!

A while back I sketched out some ideas for something quite similar. Its v1 would have been along these lines with transparent PNGs. But v2 would have sent text labels as a JSON structure containing text plus xy or latlong positions, for rendering on the client. This way you can make separate decisions about text quality and map quality, potentially serving very compressed JPEG maps, and you get very quick rendering of placenames, they'd render before the tiles and you could potentially use only the labels, no tiles, where bandwidth was expensive — and you get quick client-side language changes.

With the high frequency text components removed from map tiles, you can get away with much more aggresive compression. I'd love to turn down the quality of Retina map tiles when roaming!

I was recently reminded of the benefits of separating text foreground (high freq, so compresses poorly) and image background (low freq, so compresses well) by examining the images embedded in some PDFs of scanned books at archive.org. I think they must have been converted from master files compressed for DjVu, where this separation is normal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DjVu#Compression

- L

On 30 Nov 2012, at 14:34, Jochen Topf <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi!
>
> I have been working on a multilingual OSM map, ie. a map where you, the user
> can decide in which language the labels should be. A demo of the system is
> now available at http://mlm.jochentopf.com/ . The tiles for this demo are
> rendered on tile.openstreetmap.de, the software used is the MapQuest Render
> Stack with modifications by me. You can choose any language or language
> combination for the labels.
>
> This is only a demo, the site might be slow or not work at all. Please try
> it out and tell me what you like and what you don't like.
>
> For more about this project see:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_maps_Wikipedia_project
>
> Jochen
> --
> Jochen Topf  [hidden email]  http://www.remote.org/jochen/  +49-721-388298
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

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Re: Multilingual maps demo

Jochen123
The background tiles are JPEGs, the label tiles are transparent PNGs. So thats
similar to what you were planning.

Rendering the text in the client would be another option but thats outside the
scope of this project.

Jochen

On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 07:09:36PM +0000, Laurence Penney wrote:

> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2012 19:09:36 +0000
> From: Laurence Penney <[hidden email]>
> To: Jochen Topf <[hidden email]>
> Cc: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Multilingual maps demo
>
> Cool stuff!
>
> A while back I sketched out some ideas for something quite similar. Its v1 would have been along these lines with transparent PNGs. But v2 would have sent text labels as a JSON structure containing text plus xy or latlong positions, for rendering on the client. This way you can make separate decisions about text quality and map quality, potentially serving very compressed JPEG maps, and you get very quick rendering of placenames, they'd render before the tiles and you could potentially use only the labels, no tiles, where bandwidth was expensive — and you get quick client-side language changes.
>
> With the high frequency text components removed from map tiles, you can get away with much more aggresive compression. I'd love to turn down the quality of Retina map tiles when roaming!
>
> I was recently reminded of the benefits of separating text foreground (high freq, so compresses poorly) and image background (low freq, so compresses well) by examining the images embedded in some PDFs of scanned books at archive.org. I think they must have been converted from master files compressed for DjVu, where this separation is normal.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DjVu#Compression
>
> - L
>
> On 30 Nov 2012, at 14:34, Jochen Topf <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hi!
> >
> > I have been working on a multilingual OSM map, ie. a map where you, the user
> > can decide in which language the labels should be. A demo of the system is
> > now available at http://mlm.jochentopf.com/ . The tiles for this demo are
> > rendered on tile.openstreetmap.de, the software used is the MapQuest Render
> > Stack with modifications by me. You can choose any language or language
> > combination for the labels.
> >
> > This is only a demo, the site might be slow or not work at all. Please try
> > it out and tell me what you like and what you don't like.
> >
> > For more about this project see:
> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_maps_Wikipedia_project
> >
> > Jochen
> > --
> > Jochen Topf  [hidden email]  http://www.remote.org/jochen/  +49-721-388298
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > talk mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

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Re: Multilingual maps demo

Stephan Knauss
In reply to this post by Jochen123
Jochen Topf writes:

> I have been working on a multilingual OSM map, ie. a map where you, the user
> can decide in which language the labels should be. A demo of the system is
> now available at http://mlm.jochentopf.com/ 

nice result. Still in Thailand and probably the neighboring countries as
well the font size is so small that it's hard to read all labels.
Using a vector font instead of bitmap fonts might improve it as well.

In the past someone suggested to create an OSM font containing all vector
glyphs into one font.
Not sure if this could solve the problem with the size as well.


Stephan

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Re: Multilingual maps demo

Craig Wallace
In reply to this post by Jochen123
On 30/11/2012 14:34, Jochen Topf wrote:

> Hi!
>
> I have been working on a multilingual OSM map, ie. a map where you, the user
> can decide in which language the labels should be. A demo of the system is
> now available at http://mlm.jochentopf.com/ . The tiles for this demo are
> rendered on tile.openstreetmap.de, the software used is the MapQuest Render
> Stack with modifications by me. You can choose any language or language
> combination for the labels.
>
> This is only a demo, the site might be slow or not work at all. Please try
> it out and tell me what you like and what you don't like.

I notice it still has railway stations labelled with the default name,
even if they do have a name in the specified language.

Craig

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Re: Multilingual maps demo

Jochen123
On Sat, Dec 01, 2012 at 01:51:56PM +0000, Craig Wallace wrote:

> On 30/11/2012 14:34, Jochen Topf wrote:
> >Hi!
> >
> >I have been working on a multilingual OSM map, ie. a map where you, the user
> >can decide in which language the labels should be. A demo of the system is
> >now available at http://mlm.jochentopf.com/ . The tiles for this demo are
> >rendered on tile.openstreetmap.de, the software used is the MapQuest Render
> >Stack with modifications by me. You can choose any language or language
> >combination for the labels.
> >
> >This is only a demo, the site might be slow or not work at all. Please try
> >it out and tell me what you like and what you don't like.
>
> I notice it still has railway stations labelled with the default
> name, even if they do have a name in the specified language.

Yes, thats a bug.

Jochen
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Re: Multilingual maps demo

Jakub
In reply to this post by Stephan Knauss
that is great!

Bugreport:

on
http://mlm.jochentopf.com/?zoom=16&lat=50.09317&lon=14.34431&layers=B0T&lang=cs|ru

you can see lot of empty labels like _() ...

Jakub

On 1.12.2012 03:25, Stephan Knauss wrote:

> Jochen Topf writes:
>> I have been working on a multilingual OSM map, ie. a map where you,
>> the user
>> can decide in which language the labels should be. A demo of the
>> system is
>> now available at http://mlm.jochentopf.com/ 
>
> nice result. Still in Thailand and probably the neighboring
> countries as well the font size is so small that it's hard to read
> all labels.
> Using a vector font instead of bitmap fonts might improve it as well.
> In the past someone suggested to create an OSM font containing all
> vector glyphs into one font.
> Not sure if this could solve the problem with the size as well.
>
> Stephan
>
>

--
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tel: 7778 JAKUB, web: ja.kub.cz
Potius sero quam numquam.


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